Gendou.com Forum: Other: Head transplant?

Head transplant?

Link | by i_want_to_flirt_with_drunk_sango on 2006-08-31 15:47:01 (edited 2006-08-31 15:51:57)

head transplant

Apparently, it worked on a monkey for a short amount of time, so it is in no way science fiction. In a way, brain transplants still are merely hypothetical as far as I know.

So what do you think? A waste of time with all the stem cell research? Too unethical? Or a good idea?

I think it's a great idea, especially since if perfected it may allow us to not only move heads off paralyzed individuals, and we can also move someone from a diseased ridden body, and maybe even prolong human life someday? I wonder, if you moved the head of a thirty year old onto a twenty year old body, would the head stay thirty or would it's age adjust to the body, or vice versa? There are a little interesting possibilities and problems associated, but given the possible benefits I think we should go for it.

Re: Head transplant?

Link | by MiCHiYo^Î¼ on 2006-08-31 16:02:58 (edited 2006-08-31 16:06:50)

but you just posed the problem.

the age matters. a WHOLE lot.

what if a 40 year old mother gets transplanted to 20 year
old body? there will be too many complications, because the brain/head WILL
probably age faster; the blood cells of the brain/head are older, but the ones
of the body are 20 years younger: they don't match.

to be able to be successful, there will too much obstacles to deal with
first, such as checking if the blood type matches, looking for a body that
matches the age, looking for a FIT body, checking for any diseases,
checking if the necks will actually fit [just kidding.]...
i mean, you get the picture.

PLUS, it will diminish the meaning of uniqueness.

one day, people will just want to swap bodies for a better one rather than
working hard on what they have. people will be disatisfied and say,
"ahk~ i can have it swapped anyway."

HELLO! look at plastic srugery! O_O"

oh yeah, and talk about eternal life.
LITERALLY. -_-"

-michiyo-

beware. the QueeN oF SiGGieS is here. kill that mr. scrolly or your siggy goes BAI BAI.
it's solidarity month! let's be united!
+[-- GeNDouNiaNS: i am half-back! visit my blog by clicking on the siggie banner! updated: 12.07.07 --]+

~*..:: i'm never going to give up... if i do, then it wasn't worth trying. ::..*~

Re: Head transplant?

Link | by i_want_to_flirt_with_drunk_sango on 2006-08-31 16:23:41 (edited 2006-08-31 16:25:00)

Uniqueness? That's in the brain, that's where the "soul" of a human being is! I always thought it's whats on the inside that counts, anyways! Plastic surgery isn't the end of the world's uniqueness; and you're missing the most important thing, we can remove people from diseased/paralyzed bodies! And if age is a health issue, we can just swap for a similarly aged/healthy body, anyhow, that's what people's donated bodies would be for, we donate organs, why not donate our entire bodies IF we died so a person can walk again? Many have already donated their bodies to science, why not the end of paralysis, I think it is one of the worst fates to befall a person, especially in the USA.

Re: Head transplant?

Link | by hoheshii on 2006-08-31 16:28:06

If a body could be transplanted, then I'm sure paralysis could be cured...
It is all about connecting nerve ends...

Wise Man says: "Take a dog off its leash and it will wander."

Re: Head transplant?

Link | by MiCHiYo^Î¼ on 2006-08-31 16:35:59 (edited 2006-08-31 16:37:49)

i said the definition of uniqueness will diminish, not the uniqueness as
the definition of the person! -_-"

heehee. okay. so you die. you donate your body to a paralised person.
dude. YOU are paralised yourself for being DEAD.
PLUS, the dead bodies that are being donated to science are being used for
experiments, not to make a person continue to live.

ORGANS are a totally different story. organs are totally possible. most of the
donated organs that were taken away from LIVING bodies were alive and kicking when
they freeze-slash-preserve it. even if you say a pair of eyes from a dead person
was donated, notice that they get it while the body is fresh, not a corpse that's
been dead for, like, two days.

but a head......????

dear, it's a body part, not an organ.

you ought to consider OTHER things, too...

-michiyo-

~*..:: i'm never going to give up... if i do, then it wasn't worth trying. ::..*~

Re: Head transplant?

Link | by noobie on 2006-08-31 16:38:57

I'm sure he means a brain, not a head.

Re: Head transplant?

Link | by MiCHiYo^Î¼ on 2006-08-31 16:41:34

dear, read again.

and click on the link. ^^

-michiyo-

~*..:: i'm never going to give up... if i do, then it wasn't worth trying. ::..*~

Re: Head transplant?

Link | by i_want_to_flirt_with_drunk_sango on 2006-08-31 19:46:51 (edited 2006-08-31 19:50:07)

Of course it's a matter of transplanting heads, look at the experiment with the monkey. Transplanting a brain seems too hard at this point, and by moving the head you can aquire the desired result!

Unfortunatly, I can't find whether or not the spinal cord, let alone how much, was transfered too, this is key to a successful "cure" for parlysis, since transfering a severed spinal cord is pointless, and if you could repair one you wouldn't need to transfer a head.

So what if a head is transplanted? That may seem grotesque, but it could be a possible cure. Also, we can prolong life. Organ transplant and blood transfusion are the first steps to a "human transplant", and the semi-successful experiment is proof this is no science fiction but a possibility. This is so exciting, our medical technology is so strong and could make this a possibility in my lifetime!

I honestly don't undertsand what you mean by the "uniqueness definition of a person being lost". It may be a cultural difference, as I see no problem with plastic surgery either, but it may be an example of American vanity! You might see a head transplant as plastic surgery on a very grotesque level perhaps, but there is a very noble purpose to this, abd I'm sick of us not moving forward with science over ethics, and these are a trivial sort of ethics, it's not like we are harvesting babies.

BTW, your argument appears to be over a matter of time too, but some people KNOW they will die soon, and can then give their bodies appropriatly. If I was one of those people, and I had oppurtunity to donate my body so a person can walk and do all the other things a quadropledic can't do, I would do it, I'm sure a lot of people would too. The opportunity won't come if we don't persue the science in the first place and let things like ethics and definitions hold us back.

Re: Head transplant?

Link | by MiCHiYo^Î¼ on 2006-08-31 20:47:44 (edited 2006-08-31 20:48:01)

okay.

first of all, allow me to rephrase. i said the definition of uniqueness
will diminish, not the uniqueness as that defies the person that will
diminish.

secondly, i don't see it as plastic surgery. i was saying that, it's like
plastic surgery in the future.

thirdly, it's not about cultural differences or ethics. to me, it's
beliefs. because i believe that we should deal with what we've got.

now, looking at the more scientific side, putting beliefs aside as well,
i don't think it's a fairly bright idea to start swapping bodies. yes,
tests can be run. yes, it's a strong proof to and innovation of medical
technology. and yes, i would like to donate something, like a part of me
to someone to be able to help him/her live. if it will cure him, okay.
if it will lessen his pain, okay. but, as of now, do you not see how
much troublesome some of these donating kinds of things can possibly
cause even more problems?
i'd say it's not suggestable to swap bodies. maybe organs. but body
parts?? hallelujah. i don't know about the future... but if we talk
about our lifetime... i don't know. i disagree, i guess.

if i'm dead --- which makes my body already stiff and paralysed all the
same --- then i'd only give the "reusable" organs of mine, but not the
body. i mean, yeah, sure, it might help the paralysed-slash-vegetable
person walk and move again... but think about it. longer life? more
complications? medicine is not perfect.

i'd do it, but not my body. just the organs in me.

-michiyo-

~*..:: i'm never going to give up... if i do, then it wasn't worth trying. ::..*~

Re: Head transplant?

Link | by i_want_to_flirt_with_drunk_sango on 2006-08-31 21:23:25

"because i believe that we should deal with what we've got."

Why?

Please don't take this the wrong way, Michiyo, but this is the kind of thinking and beliefs that has to stop in regards to science. A few magic words and the research stops, and the science is over with? What we got is only possible through science; someone sought to have more, and we can have a lot more thorugh this creepy but important science! Also, a parlyzed person should'nt have to lose the chance to walk again over a few words and especially if it's from beliefs formed over religion and faith; but I'm not saying that's where you got the idea from though.

The body is irrelevant when you die, and it can do more good as a transplant if such a process becomes perfected, which I believe we ARE on the verge of! You don't have to feel the same way, as there is the unwritten rule that your body is your property even after you die, but I would gladly like to help someone in such need if I could, especially if it cost me nothing but a corpse in my grave!

And how exactly does the "definition of uniqueness diminish" thourgh a body transplant? I don't really see it, since it's still me in the head. Can you give me an example please?

Re: Head transplant?

Link | by MiCHiYo^Î¼ on 2006-08-31 22:14:33 (edited 2006-08-31 22:26:58)

why...?

look around you. we still need to deal with the things we've got, eg.
POPULATION OVERLOAD...!

have you ever thought of OVERPOPULATION???
and you STILL want to extend lives despite that?
it's called a positive check, meaning it's one way of DECREASING the
population though it is NOT a positive method. (sorry. slipping in some
geography here... heehee! ><)

dear, i DID mention to disregard my reasoning of making my beliefs a reason.
regarding God (yes, i read it... i copied and pasted it in word to type a reply),
have you seen my profile? ><
He gave us brains to think for the betterment of mankind, but not to
overpower and overthrow him.
no wonder why mr. religion and mr. science NEVER got along.
[by the way no matter who or what you believe in, if it's a high-
almighty, then that's who i'm referring to. no racism in religion from
me here...]

i didn't say a few magical words should get in the way; i'm saying, think
real hard about it before you decide. i mean, i myself am willing to give
away an organ if it's of no use to me anymore and someone else will
benefit more from it. but you said yourself: the body is irrelevant when
you die. irrelevant to the person who died. ever thought of all the toxin
that went through her dead body already? a dead body starts to deteriorate
after 6 hours of death. bacteria comes in, munches all the blood, et cetera.
so unless a body is preserved quite freshly right-on-the-dot-before-
deterioration, then i guess it's possible. plus, improvements, or
innovation rather, in medicine can never EVER be perfected. if they were,
then why is there no permanent cure to hepatitis or even just the flu yet?

uniqueness
- adjective
- derivative of UNIQUE
- origin: from french, from latin unicus, from unus 'one'
- meaning 1: being the only one of its kind; unlike anything else
- meaning 2: remarkable or unusual

diminish
- verb
- meaning: to make or become less

okay. so i have the definitions out.
put it together.
look at yourself. at people.
we're all unique --- different in some ways but alike in some as well.
now if you allow this to happen, watch the definition of the word UNIQUE
slowly crumble and become less of what it really means. we won't any more
be different, because we're using someone elses body to move around in. we
are no longer who we are. even if you say that we're only using the body,
the body counts on making us be us. it has an effect, of course. so even
if your brain is still intact and whatsoever thingamajig and you just connect
veins and make bloodstreams work, things are obviously going to be different,
and that person won't have his own unique identity anymore.

oh yeah. speaking of identity, what are you planning to do about the following:
- fingerprints
- hair differences
- tongue and lip prints
- dna

sorry shishio... ^^
do i argue too much...?

-michiyo-

~*..:: i'm never going to give up... if i do, then it wasn't worth trying. ::..*~

Re: Head transplant?

Link | by lenn08 on 2006-08-31 23:24:24 (edited 2006-08-31 23:29:50)

There are also other ways to do the head transplant. Here's what i'm thinking about head transplant.

But first, i should say that certainly everyone point of view is correct. One sees trough medical view, while other sees from an ethnical side. Both sides should realize that to save or to prolong someone's life is neither a crime nor a sin. While the idea of head transplant is freaking us out, if it's working then there is a probability that people will accept it. But please understand that we (i assume many other also thinking my way) prefer to transplant our head not to someone else's body, but to an artificial life form, human cybernetic body or cyborg is an option. Frankly speaking, building a complete clone without head is also an option for this idea, freak isn't it?

The population is not a major threat. I assume that not everyone want to live forever. of course my assumption is arguable, but we should see that not everybody will opt the option to live forever, either via head transplant or other methods. I may add here, that in near future, population overload will not of our concern anymore. More and more prosperous countries and it's lifestyle are changing people way of life, including their thinking about having children. Population overload only happen in underdeveloped countries where thinking like "many child to support our family" is still common. Our asia counterpart is a proof to this insight, while in the contrary we could see the European country or USA/ Japan that have a decreasing or shrinking population.

Things like the fingerprints also won't be a problem. Really it's just an administration problem, as simple as : change body A to B, then A is using B's fingerprints. But michiyo had a point on DNA, if we're about to transplant our head then our new body should have a similar DNA or else things will go haywire^^ That's why, i said that we or i alone, prefer to transplant our beloved head to an artificial body that we could make as similar as our also beloved old body.

PS: you can't transplant your brain or head alone to another body. You also need to bring all your spinal cord along to your new body.

長谷川陸
Hasegawa Riku

Re: Head transplant?

Link | by i_want_to_flirt_with_drunk_sango on 2006-09-01 00:03:38 (edited 2006-09-01 00:07:38)

This is fun! No I don't think you argue too much, in fact people should do it more often and start THINKING about the world!

Anyhow,

Yes I still want to extend life despite that population bomb.

Yes I still want to give people who can't walk a chance to walk if possible.

Why wouldn't any human being want that?

Overpopulation? Move our cities into the wilderness, build our buildings higher. Don't limit our lives and science over it!

BTW, IMO Overpopulation is more a problem of economics. A lot of countries CAN'T sustain their growing poor and sick, especially in places like India and African nations, but that is for their governemnts to take care of, it's not fair to limit science over bad politics. A lot of these nations are overrun with corrupt dictators and torn by conflicts that prevent them from tackling the problem. And those poor people won't be recieveing the benefit of a new bodies. There is plenty of land, and our country is proof there is no or at least few shortages of food and medicine or housing, just shortages of MONEY.

If you're concerned about overpopulation in big cities, like where I live you'll realize that the solution is not to stop having babies or whatever, it's to build more housing and provide better work and so forth (another economic issue).

Now that that Chocobo has been feathered, I have to talk about the faith thing, this thread is not supposed to go into matters of God, what I stated was beliefs shouldn't stop science, I meant no matter what they are rooted in, even religous ones, and I didn't say you had religous motives, I even stated that. I was just covering all the bases, so to speak, and basically stating no beliefs or "magic words" should stop science, and I took "I believe we should deal with what we got" as some premeditated belief based on faith, you didn't mention you were refering to population explosion, when you make a broad statement like that, it can mean anything, especially after you said "to me, it's beliefs", so of course I may take it as religous beliefs. It seemed like you tried to let words get in the way, understand? Sorry!

In fact I was trying to steer this away from that religion, I thought you were going in to that! But I have to respond, (sorry Gendou) I believe in God too, but I don't believe prolonging our life is "overpowering" Him, in the same way cloning isn't. Sorry, but that makes no sense at all! But if you want to continue that debate, you have to bring it to another forum!

BTW no one is asking you to donate your body, and a lot of are more than willing to give ours up if we died! The circumstances where a body could be transplanted are rare, but they are possible with planning. That is more than enough reason to pursue this.

Yes I would retain my identity and be unique with a transplant. It'd still be me. I would be able to get on with my life. And I know what the words mean, duh, but I just don't see the connection you make Michiyo! And I doubt I ever will see it! It's because the person is still who they are and the have prolonged life/new life. The body is merely cosmetic at best. I still don't understand where you're making such an odd connection like that at!

The anwswer to fingerprints etc. is simple, you register with your NEW prints, and take the responsibilty and risk of having new DNA. The people who would be transplanted would know what they are getting into and accept it, seriously, just as people who go to a sperm bank for a baby with another's DNA do, or people who go to an adoption agency for someone else's baby do as well!

lans- I need to think about what you've said before I cna respond if I need to, it's interesting, and it sucks you need the spinal cord too, hmmm I wonder why people say it's a way to cure parlysis then? Maybe there is a way to bypass the old spinal cord and attach the new somehow...but egardless, it is still useful to prolong life and relive people of horrible diseases. Ever had food poisoning? It really sucks! Well imagine that EVERY DAY and problaby worse, I would grab at a chance for a head transplant then!

Re: Head transplant?

Link | by lenn08 on 2006-09-01 00:53:42 (edited 2006-09-01 11:16:16)

The so-called faith problem is only a mirage. Please let me explain about this from my point of view.

Faith is our believe to God. In this case, we only think about how to prolong our lives via a head transplant, death is still inevitable. I think having a long live is not a sin at all. While we could argue the immortal, but it's clear that to prolong lives is not a problem in respect to faith or religion, unless there's a dogma not to prolong your lives by a head transplant.

It's not the question about giving opportunity to prolong our lives, nor about opportunity to cure some illness. It's about the question about is this against your faith? The answer is no. Take an example, if someone is paralyze for his live and take the opt to change his body into cybernetic, is he against the his faith or God? or we assume that it is his faith's will to make him paralyze for his entire life? of course not, as we believe God is full of mercy and from my understanding, allow human to grasp science and technology. As Einstein himself has said "God did not play dice when creating the universe". In fact, aside from moral-social-religion, the only thing that really limits us is the law of physics, lolz.

So, as to think about it. Head transplant won't be a problem of faith. Let's ask ourselves about it. If someday you'll be able to transplant your head into a completely new cybernetic body, will the new you lose your faith? If it's me, i won't lose my faith. In fact, able to prolong my life is a bless. and i consider that it's an opportunity to start a new life. How bout it? Sorry if it's a little awkward, i see too much Masamune Shirow's^^

*preparing to feel the frypan attack*
*give a "pretty-please don't hurt me" look to michiyo*

Edit: I'm really sorry if anyone considered my post as religion discussion which is forbidden in here. If Gendou sees this way, than i'm more than willing to erase the content. While i'm at it, i'll try to fix it so it won't be too close to religion.

長谷川陸
Hasegawa Riku

Re: Head transplant?

Link | by i_want_to_flirt_with_drunk_sango on 2006-09-01 01:09:39

OK, cool, but let's jump out of the faith pool, it gets threads locked, but i do appreciate what you say and agree totally; but I want to hear if you have any real evidence that a transplant can be made to an artificial state, this sounds like science fiction to me, another off topic thing, but if you have evidence this is possible, I am very interested!

There are artificial hearts though, but given that a head transplant HAS been made and been somewhat successful I'd rather take that road now and go for real life cybenetics later, but the artificial heart is one step closer to that reality, which will happen someday, although the head transplant is already here!

Re: Head transplant?

Link | by lenn08 on 2006-09-01 01:30:11 (edited 2006-09-01 02:01:04)

Well, it's already an old science. Computer chips made by silicon and more advance materials are getting smaller. Nano technologies are used, and finally now, in some degree are able to communicate with our neuro system. The medical world already implementing it, but at a high cost due to R&D process. For example, as i seen on Discovery and other science channel, they successfully develop an instrument made to support paralyze people to do some movement. Of course you would said, it's great and what next? but sadly, it's going nowhere near now. The science limits us until we made a breakthrough in more advance technology that can communicate better with our neuro system.

Remember that what made us able to move our limbs is the neuro system, consisted of complexâ€¦ well, neuros and other stuff i hardly remember, coz i took biology class years ago^^ but basically, the neuro system other than using chemistry interchange between cells, also use some degree of micro electric pulse. This we can use to communicate to some computer chips that in the process can decipher what our neuro system is commanding to the artificial limb. Hence, we can do every movement to support our lives (to breath, blood pumping process, digesting process) and activity. And yes, if this works then we could change our body parts as our will. But i think it won't be a fuss, people even now are afraid to surgery for good reasons. And change body parts even if youâ€™re fully cybernetic are still a major problem, i mean you still had to face the risk of death and it can go wrong. Other than that, you could also think that by doing heart change, lung change we could be as close to immortal being. Logically i would answer yes; by doing this of course you could prolong your life far more than our natural body is able to. But then, are you willing to live forever? I think that for some degree we will want to take some "rest" after our long years of living, perhaps for a good reason.

Anyway, it's still quite some far from now. So, you don't have to worry about population that go boom* from a generation that won't die because of head transplant. If we acquire this level of technology, i'm sure we're already on our way to explore the space and habitable place is no logger an issue.

Perhaps Gendou with his superior knowledge can explain more than i'm able to. Seek him out for more knowledge.

Edit: adding a note that what i'm saying about changing body parts is when someone's body is already a complete cybernetic body/ cyborg. It's really only a dream for now, to think that how we're able to make an artificial lung, heart, digesting process or even to make an artificial skin and its receptor ability. Overall, it's still unclear and human will make his/her choice someday, either to opt this or to take another way. But believe me, to live to almost forever is always a human's dream. and perhaps someday this go-full-cybernetic/cyborg option is available to us.

長谷川陸
Hasegawa Riku

Re: Head transplant?

Link | by MiCHiYo^Î¼ on 2006-09-01 04:41:12 (edited 2006-09-01 04:52:06)

@SHiSHio:

i'm sorry if i'm making quite odd and wierd connections to the topic. i have
a bad case of pinning things down specifically without being able to explain
the entire picture. now that you've pointed it out, i don't know what got to
me and i can't explain it (reason stated previously). though that's not an excuse,
i'll try my best to explain myself. soon.

regarding population explotion, you make sound like it's so easy for the LEDCs (less
economically developed countries) to cope up, all because of corrupted government
systems. ehem, but look at ours (philippines)! i have to admit, poverty IS huge here
and that people aren't exactly having the time of their lives, PLUS population
growth is rapid. yeah, sure, there are many open areas to live in, but where are
the CBDs (central business districts)? they are far far far away. that's why they
end up migrating and overpopulating cities. (sorry to add in geography again.)

about human cloning, that's a different topic. so, yeah. i won't extend it any
further. just want you to know that i'm against it.
prolonging life? let's just leave it there. i mean, fine. it's up to you if you
want to live any longer.

@LaNS:

no, i'm not going to hit you with my frypan and spatula. ^^

hmmm... God, faith, belief... science...? uhm, yeah. maybe we shouldn't argue about
God. i don't want to get sacked from my position here, and mostly, i don't want
an argument about faith... beliefs... and God. because it's all in what you believe
in. that's why no one ever wins in religion vs. science debates. *sigh*

yes, i do agree with you with the whole cybernetic body. and, yes, i agree with your
explanation of how they work. and, yeah, costings are high. and, hahaha, yeah, the only
thing left to beat is the law of physics. ><

maybe we SHOULD wait for gendou...
eep.
i'm scared.
what if he locks this? O_O
it's all my fault.......
ahk~
i'm sorry... ~_~

-michiyo-

~*..:: i'm never going to give up... if i do, then it wasn't worth trying. ::..*~

Re: Head transplant?

Link | by i_want_to_flirt_with_drunk_sango on 2006-09-01 05:26:48 (edited 2006-09-01 05:30:20)

It doesn't matter, I'm not going to be hanging around here as much because of things that have been happening on Gendou lately (I'll still come around to talk MIDIs and FF6 with Gendou and the members, and to share pics and download music).

I asked if people thought it was unethical in the start, but I didn't mean for it to dip into religion when I said that. I really like reading the Physics threads, but in the future I'll steer things AWAY from ethics, it dips into religion too easily, which gets everyone heated and off-topic. I've learned that from this thread. I really just wanted to debate the possibilities, learn more about it, and find out what people thought, and whether people thought was a waste of time. Unfortunatly, ethics and this subject seem to be intertwined too deeply.

Re: Head transplant?

Link | by

on 2006-09-01 05:31:03

brain transpalnt that is very impossible

i tell you!!!!

loook the brain is th e controller of all organs her and if that thing was gone everything will stop

i tell you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-->

Re: Head transplant?

Link | by angelyuki on 2006-09-01 05:31:47

i dont think this head transplant will work. it says "decapitating". you dont need the whole head chopped of to make living things dead, just a force tugging away at the neck will do.

plus, the experiment sounds ridiculous to me. i've seen my lab technician killed a rabbit. he took it by the head and swug the rabbit in one quick motion and the rabbit immediately died. its spinal cord and nerves were detached, loads of physiological processes stopped and it died.

and blood vessels and nerves reattaching is uuuber hard to do. even the most experienced neurologist cant give a full guarantee that the operation will succeed without any complications.

so to me, it is impossible for head transplant.

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