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Zero Tolerance in schools
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Hey everyone. Im doing a ten page research paper on Zero tolerance in schools. I have to use ten sources out of books, magazines, and newspaper articles. I am allowed to use any other sources for extra credit. I had the "brilliant" idea to poll the genius of gendou.com for their opinions on said topic. Please relay any insight you have so that I may get extra credit on my project. Thanks a million plus one.  |
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Re: Zero Tolerance in schools
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| Well, I think Zero Tolerance in school is too much, considering when the ones that study in that particular school are kids who do some funny stuff. It is like when you give Zero Tolerance, it is almost similar to not giving a chance to change. The school is not a government that governs a country, a school is place where students learn not just through textbooks and teachers, but to experiences as well. So, giving a chance is like teaching a certain person how to make up with his/her wrong doings. I say I'll give 10% tolerance to schools to avoid leniency of the implemented law in the school. |
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Re: Zero Tolerance in schools
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by blightraider
on 2005-12-08 07:09:28
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I see... U flatter us at gendou.com with sweet words like genius. Fortunately 4 u, flattery gets u places nowadays... To mi zero tolerance is very subjective. In a country like Singapore where crime rates are low and deliquency at superficial lvls(not so serious), maybe its not appropriate as it would be seen as going overboard. Perhaps, like in the states, where the possibility of students killing/shooting one another and discrimination is rampant(forgive me if my view seems rather narrow-minded but ive watched "Bowling for Columbine") a stronger message(zero tolerance or otherwise) needs to be sent to deter juvenile deliquency/crimes. On the other hand, zero tolerance may breed rebellious behaviour when the youth feel oppressed regardless of country or background. Hope my views were helpful.^^  |
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Re: Zero Tolerance in schools
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by
on 2005-12-08 09:51:29 |
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0 tolerance means that school is goin down kissin da dirt if ya know wat i mean
Lol Tiem~
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Re: Zero Tolerance in schools
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| That's why I love my school. You get to know a lot of police. Zero tolerance however pisses me off. You expel a kid for doing something stupid and he/she now has no chance to help society in a manner which he/she could have if they just took the time to understand the problem. I love my school because even if you scream at the teacher, get into fights, and probably get put in an armbar by most of our "security staff," you still get the chance to explain yourself. If you have personable administrators they can influence the kids positively. Now they have squirrely little bastards who just want to collect a paycheck and have summer off. Those are the people I mouth off to before I have to reverse a hold and push off one of our friendly "security staff" members. My point is to knock out your kids but talk with them after they wake up. |
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Re: Zero Tolerance in schools
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by
on 2005-12-09 00:27:33 |
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If people get too high strung, they tend to lose something. People who get pushed too far start pushing back. My point here is that zero tolerance doesn't give students a chance to explain. The result is far worse than what one could predict. Ran has a point. I also think that the school is an institution where children (to whatever age it reaches) learn -- and it DOES involve learning wrongs and rights. I personally believe that learning about mistakes is a lot better than not knowing of them. *blip*  *blip* |
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Re: Zero Tolerance in schools
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by
on 2005-12-09 09:59:25 (edited 2005-12-09 10:05:30)
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Added after I wrote this. Josh, this is long, it took almost several hours to write only I think you need this for your report from a parent and victims point of view form the laws. You should also Google Zero Tolerance. I did when this all happened and you’ll be amazed at what goes on over Zero Tolerance. I am telling to you to show you how it works and can be applied when people get caught up in it. I will also remind you that Ranger and I are not your usual set of parents. We have always been there for our children and Ranger started a war protecting Ky over this incident. We won the war and lost a lot of friends and respect in the community and our temple. We also gained some new friends. A reminder; our immediate community is about 1200, the HS at the time had 3000 student in a place built for 2000 All of the names have been changed. It starts here and I may comment at the end. ----------- I'll be glad to talk about Zero Tolerance since Ky was almost expelled for a simple mistake. You're also going to see how a school district works when those that are supposed to be your mentors and sensei live for the rules instead of the spirit of education. Start with some background. Both Ranger and I have several friends who worked for the school district. Some were directly involved. You'll also find out how underhanded they can be teachers are. Cast of characters Ky my son who is a Special Ed student with severe ADD/HD. Corey, the principal, in talks with him over the years we found he cares more for the staff and rules than he does students. Ranger once asked him what he thought his responsibility was and he said it was to the school district. When asked about the students he didn't think they were his responsibility. We found this out before Ky started there. Margery Vice principal in charge of security and discipline at one time a very good teacher she was a terrible principle. she is an example of the Peter Principal at work. Joe, a member of our temple long time friend and district Student Personnel Manager, he was in charge of all the students in the district. Cmdr. Norm, city police dept and school board member Lauren an old friend and school board member who no longer talks to me. Clarke, Ranger's cousin flying buddy and attorney. Jorge (hor-hay) or George, PD, patrol officer at the HS. More as I remember them. I shall tell this as it happened to the best of my memory. I reserve the right to literary license for what was said. I’m doing me best to remember. Ky was a freshman in HS and in the middle of his first year in Jan. Wearing one of ranger's uniform jackets he was walking behind the auto shop, which is also where kids got to hide and smoke, when several security guards came through the area and swept up everyone who was there regardless of what they were doing. Detaining them the kids were all told to turn out their pockets. That's when Ky found Rangers ceramic folding knife in the jacket pocket he wore that day. When he found the knife he told the security guard that he had it and that he didn't know it was there so they took him and a few others to Margery's office where the knife was turned in. The knife itself has a folding a blade 2.5 inches long and is made of ceramic which is why it wasn't picked up by the metal detectors. Ky voluntarily turned it in saying he didn't know it was there. The Result was an immediate five day suspension without a proper investigation or talking to Ranger or me. There was also the possibility of suspension because the districts rules, ten of them being what we call crash landings, the expulsion rules, that say a student may be expelled by having a knife (and/or several other items). Obviously we complained and we were told there would be an independent review of the situation by the investigating board at the high school (they also investigate other things as well), until then Ky couldn't return to school. The board asked Ky how did get the knife? He reply was when he went to school that day he grabbed Ranger's uniform jacket on the way oyr and the knife was in the pocket which Ky didn't even know was there. The investigation board decided it was an accident, a mistake and that the suspension should be lifted and sent that to Corey who reviewed it and without talking to us recommend that Ky be permanently expelled with no chance to return to that HS or any other school in the district. His reason was the 10 Crash Landing Rules to which he always applied the maximum, expulsion. When we talked to Joe and protested we were told we could talk to Corey and if he refused we could appeal to the school board. Joe also told us that Ky's expulsion would be upheld and he couldn't do anything for us, even though he had the authority, nice friend - we've known him 15 years. At this point it was no longer our problem, it became theirs, because we never take no for an answer and the children are everything. On Friday after his suspension Ranger spent half a day talking to Corey, Margery and the review board and they finally agreed to let Ky remain if he signed a contract with the school agreeing to keep his grades up, not to miss any days at school for the rest of the semester and to stay out of trouble until he graduated and to allow for random searches. The contract was a nightmare and essentially meant that what by signing it Ky not only gave up all of his rights as a student but his constitutional rights as well. Ranger and I knew that Ky's disability would prevent that. In the meantime everyone we knew was telling us this was a no-win situation and don’t fight the school board.. Sunday night depressed and not knowing what to do Ranger called Clarke and told him what happened. Clarke’s response (at 11:00 on a Sunday) asked what Ranger was doing and he said, "I'm sitting here having a brew and talking to you dumbs--t. Clarke's response was, "Why aren't you here talking to meâ€. Five minutes later Ranger left for Clarke’s a 30 min drive from here down the mountain. I didn’t go and I found out they worked on a project until 4-5 in the morning since the contract had to be signed Monday morning at 8:00, as school was starting, and to have it ready for the board meeting Tuesday evening. Enter Jorge who is a member of the PD and a close friend. His patrol beat is the HS so Monday morning Ranger called him and to be a witness to the proceedings that were going to happen and to remind him to stay calm. When Ranger gets angry you don’t want to be near-by. Ranger is also there in his T-rangers uniform and he is armed and when angry despite his self control he can be very intimidating. We met in Margery’s, office with Corey, Ky's counselor, the district physiologist who Ky sees, and the security guars involved. We had to leave the door open because of the amount of people there made it very crowded and ranger was in a corner and insisted it remain open. That meant the students walking by could listen watch from outside as well. We walked in, sat down and started talking about the contract as Ranger made a big show of reading. Don't forget Ranger has taken acting in the local Jr College to make is lectures and presentations better so he was making a huge show out of this. (He and Clarke also worked on what he was to say and staged everything that happened in Margery's office). He was scanning the document pointing with a pen, he doesn’t do that, and commenting on certain paragraphs then leans forwards to Margery's desk and took the pen to sign it. Then with everyone watching, a crowd outside the office and a well staged dead silence inside he sits up and say loudly "You know what; if Ky signs this he gives up his constitutional rights to everything" then he tears up the contract saying, "I can't sign this, I won't sign this. Put him back in school, credit him for the time missed and I'll forget about the whole thingâ€. Corey now angry since Ranger’ has been dragging this out keeping him there says, "If you don't sign he's expelled permanently". Ranger, with all of these people around, says in dramatically, "Corey in my opinion you have failed. You have failed the as the school principal, you have failed the students and you have failed as a person. You should give up education because you don't know how to do it and you show no responsibility or interests in the kids at this school". Ranger told me later he practiced that for an hour to do it right. Corey screams at Ranger, "You SOB and a lot of other things not repeatable, I'm going to sue you for libel and slanderâ€. Ranger then takes an envelope from his briefcase says, "I'll save you the trouble. Since in my opinion your worthless as a principal and you don't pay attention to my son when he asks for your help (Corey has refused to talk to Ky and other students when asked to) I have a present for you", and hands him big manila envelope which was the paperwork he and Clark had worked on for five hours. More Ranger, “Here ya go Corey, a lawsuit for $10 millionUS for violating my son’s rights and..." and he went on to give a list a mile long. At this point Margery starts to laugh and Ranger turns to Margery and said, "What the F are you laughing at? In my opinion you're not much better, in fact your worse and I got one for you too", and hands her an envelope. By then Ranger is really angry and turns to Jorge who is also laughing and that breaks the tension and Ranger looks at Jorge and says, "Is that all right George"? Lorge asked Ranger if he as finished, Ranger nodded and said ye, I’m done and walks out with an evil laugh evil laugh smiling at Jorge dragging me and Ky yellings, "See ya in court". We made one more stop, at the school district offices to give one to the district superintendent only he was on vacation so we gave it to our friend Joe and tried to talk to him telling him what the Corey was doing wrong. At that point our 15 year friendship with Joe and Suzie dissolved. Joe got angry and told him what Ranger was doing was wrong and he should just go with the flow and find another school for Ky. Tuesday night went to the board meeting and when we got there all three TV stations were there, radio too. To add to the confusion the board didn't have a clue as to what was going on since they never got word of complaint. The board said they had reviewed the incident and were going to accept Corey's recommendation saying the decision stands Ky was to be expelled at once. All of this despite the HS review committee saying forget it and let Ky go back to school. What we didn't know was a student recorded the entire thing in Margery's office with a camcorder and took it home to his mother who worked at the TV stations news department. In our area this was a major news event. Standing there in front of the board with Clarke, Ranger asks Norm and Lauren who he's known since they were all kids, to relax and give it a break Let Ky go back to school. They knew Ky and he didn't do it on purpose. When Norm said no, Ranger who never really liked Norm anyway, says loudly for the TV cameras. â€I'm sorry you feel that way Norm, because if you have to do that I have to do this and hands each school board member an envelope and stomps out yelling, "see ya in court", a very popular phrase that week. The TV and radio news stopped us and Ranger starts going on about Zero Tolerance. This was kept in the news as a major story until the next board meeting the following week. Norm said that the board has reviewed our request not even admitting it was a lawsuit and said that the board decided to let Ky remain in school. Of course they did they were in the wrong and they didn’t have the money to pay up when they lost in court. Clarke had told Ranger to watch his mouth which didn’t work and he told Norm to stop BSing everyone, that they had violated the law in expelling Ky and they had to do it or else it would have cost them a lot of money in court and that they would lose. He then demanded right there that he have the boards decision in writing here and now, hand written and signed by the entire board. They refused at first and Ranger starts making a big show of the envelope, these were big manila envelopes and he had a stack of them, saying if they didn't get it now the next morning he would be in the courthouse filing the complaint at 8:00 when they opened the next morning. The board gave in and Ky went back to school. In the aftermath; six weeks later Mu was accused of stealing $1800US from the school store where she was the student manager, Mu lost her friends, dropped out of that HS and went to another and her grades fell to failing. She now carries a big hate for educator and schools. There was no truth in it at all but the school (Corey and Margery) wanted to use Ky's sister as an example that you shouldn't fight the school district. Jorge investigated and from the start pointed out he had watched our kids grow up and there was now way they would to something like that. He eventually found that the person in the cafeteria who Mu gives the money to stole it. We found Corey had tried a vendetta and it failed. Because of the incident Joe who was prominently featured in the news had loss of face.. So in front of everybody at services one Friday night he said we should apologize to the entire congregation for the insult he did to our temple. A lot of people agreed. Ranger got angry and called them all hypocrites and a lot of other names and we haven't returned since. Then Ranger ran into Corey at the pub one night. I saw them talking in the corner only I don't know what was said however, I do know this; when Corey is in the same room with Ranger he stays on the opposite side away from him. He also no longer comes to the Alamo for a beer and I can see he is very afraid of Ranger when they are close. I just asked what Ranger said and his answer was I didn't want to know. It was a very cold answer which means Ranger would follow through on whatever he said to Corey. In the two weeks time of this entire thing we lost a lot of friends, we also lost a lot of respect in our community. What they did was unfair and if that happens fighting back is the only answer. Zero Tolerance laws, which are favored by President Bush who violates them himself, only ruins people’s lives. There seems to be a law for everything and none for them allow even the slightest mistake. Add to that the people who are responsible for enforcement don’t read or understand their own rules and policies. Since they don’t know they make it up as they go along. That’s what happened here. The lawsuit was based on the fact that Ky is a Special Ed student with a disability and that from the word go they violated word in their own policies and rules for dealing with Special Ed students. The rules still stand, kids are still getting into trouble. Bowling for Columbine was a bad film a poor example of what is going on. Michael Moore is a poor example of a documentary film maker who slants everything for his personal views. That helps re-enforce the Zero Tolerance laws. this took a long time. No more corrections.  |
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Re: Zero Tolerance in schools
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Dear lord Lady Rin. Thats a ghastly tale and exactly why I am fighting Zero tolerance in my paper. I spoke with my english teacher and he gave me the thumbs up to use you as an extra credit source. I want to ask you before I use anything from your story though. If anything it reinforces my opinions on zero tolerance. On the school announcements today we were told that anyone found sharing a locker with friends would get an instant saturday school. My school and the rest of the nation might as well be writing this paper for me. They have given me so much to fight. Thank you for the AMAZING response Lady Rin and all the others. Personally I still stand by what I said a while back about you being one of the most intelligent people I have ever met/read. I agree with what you did completely. |
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Re: Zero Tolerance in schools
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by
on 2005-12-12 19:44:01 (edited 2005-12-12 19:50:39)
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Detention for sharing a locker? That's insane. Why, Wht's the logic behind that? I suppose a repeat offender is suspend for a week. Ky's story is not as ghastly as you think. It's actually quite tame by comparision to most I've read about. Here are some examples I remember; A senior year HS trip to France with teachers as chaperone went to a proper wine tasting. In a wine tasting you take the wine in your mouth, swish it around and spit it out. You do not swallow. When the word got back to the school district the teachers lost their jobs and all the students who went were expelled. I think it was the football team. You may have to check the details on that one. A 2nd grade girl had a plastic picnic knife in her lunch box to spread peanut butter on her crackers. She was expelled. A 3rd Grade boy kissed a girl and was expelled for sexual harrassment. Sexual harassment? A 9 year old? The girls parents wanted to press charges. I found this and a lot more. Vendettas like the one taken against us through Mu are quite common, I found those as well, where the sibs suffered when the parents fought back. Worse, when most kids are asked an opinion about Zero Tolereance they agree with it following along like the mindless sheep YOUR school district has been turing you into.' More regarding Ky's incident. Don't forget we live in a very small community that is part of a fair sized school district. This incident is dragged up every time something happens here, especially by the Rightous Revereand Rolex a presbyterian(sp) preacher who lives on our road. He hates Ky over that incident, I have no idea why. If Ky is with a bunch of boys and someone wants a scapegoat he's it. It follows him everywhere. Ranger and I are looked on as hero parents by some and reviled by others for challenging the all mighty school district. Ranger has said in retrospect if he had to do the whole thing over again he would not have backed down on the lawsuit when they agreed to his terms. He would have pursued it and driven the school district into bankruptcy since it was a definite no-win for the district. We would have used the money to send the kids to private school. You can use anything you want. Use our online names if you wish. You kids, all kids are being ripped of by the politicians and wealthy. Most American kids can't read worth a damn or do math either. You can't point to Korea or Iran on a map, you can't even name all 50 states and their capitals and it's not your fault. Ranger calls it the dumbing down of America and it is supported by the same people who say, "No child left behind". Zero Tolerence is the worst thing to happen to this nation in the 20th century. It concentrates on discipline and makes kids distrust those who are supposed to educate them. It also turns educators into policemen. Is that right? Seems to me the US has become a country of drugs, discipline and dropouts instead ot reading, writing and arithmetic. Don't forget George Bush supports Zero Tolerance for all manner of petty offenses. I recommend this book very strongly: 1984 by George Orwell. Orwell's future is coming true, only it's about 20 years late. |
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Re: Zero Tolerance in schools
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| Having a plastic butterknife and getting expelled.............thats just insane. I mean i used to break the end of forks to creat knives in 7th grade and i never got expelled(even though i did get caught,of course those were very........aggressive times) Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm i made harpoons out of mechanical pencils and arrows out of paper that could actually cut you(like i said creativly agressive times) in the 7th grade and nope not one single incident did i get expelled or even detention.I think the school district here does not support Zero Tolerance because they are too poor.(If you watch the new on school funds you might know what state i'm from) |
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Re: Zero Tolerance in schools
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by overlordsero
on 2005-12-12 23:14:36
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Im american. I could care less if I cant name all fifty states. wonder how many I REALLY know? Arkansas,Kansas,Louisana,Michigan,North Dakota,South Dakota, Oregon, Idaho,Illinous, Alaska, Hawaii, Florida, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Maine, New York, Virginia, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Nevada, Tennesee, Georgia, Iowa,.......screw it.....its 1am for me Ive been up for more than 24 hrs and all I care about is where I live: Minnesota. Actually, I like math, I took upto Calculus. the school had two Calc classes: Calc AB and Calc BC. took Ab in 11th grade and BC in 12th. 
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Re: Zero Tolerance in schools
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by
on 2005-12-13 05:26:17 (edited 2005-12-13 05:27:57)
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Minnesota? I've never been there. I hear it get's cold in Minnesota. You miss the point Sero. The education of american children is being put on the sidelines to better concentrate on Zero Tolerance or making sure you know what to do during a terrorist attack. So stay alert for terrorist activities and make sure our children can't assault each other with plastic knves, expell him/her and put them in jail because they had a drink (alcohol), a cigaraette or becuse were was smoking pot. Alright then. How many of you feel Ky should have been expelled for having a knife in his pocket, accident or not? And when you answer tell me why you think that way because I'm not just going to accept yes or no for an answer. |
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Re: Zero Tolerance in schools
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by overlordsero
on 2005-12-13 06:43:25
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LOL. Yeah it gets cold here around this time of the year. Anyway to the question. No, he should not have been expelled. Maybe if it has happened many times before then probably but it didnt and that is just stupid to do that. They should get at least 1 or 2 warnings. Oh and I have this to say about America: We baby ourselfs with censors, zero tolerance and Anti-bacterial soap.
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Re: Zero Tolerance in schools
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| Ok, here's what it is-Schools are ignorant! Most schools don't really care wether or not some kid gets thrown if he/she does not benefit the school. For example if the star football/baseball/basketball/soccer player in the school gets caught with a knife, then you know what?Nothing happens! The school really wants to win them games. So all in all Schools care more about there image and how many "potential school homocides" they supposidly avoided,over the students. |
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Re: Zero Tolerance in schools
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by Seculi Terminus
on 2005-12-13 15:00:08
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My personal opinion on whether or not someone should be expelled for having a knife is generally no. It depends on the circumstances. If they have a history of being violent (as in routinely, not three or four fistfights in his career as a student), and whoops, now he's carrying a knife too, then that's one thing. If he's a basically good student and is willing to let it be confiscated, then as a principal, I would let it go - although I might keep a SLIGHTLY closer eye on him than I had before. Usually, though, if a kid wants to kill someone, he brings a gun. If it's only a knife it's probably either because he thinks he needs it for self-defense or is planning to use it for intimidation. In any case, this zero tolerance stuff is bullshit. No single, simple rule is going to be as good as even half-good sense, and to apply such a harsh sentence on those who break it is just insanely stupid. That's my $0.02. Plus change. AKA Home-Dog Ass-Masta' The G-Unit |
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Re: Zero Tolerance in schools
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Excellent! Exactly what I have een saying in my report so far. Thank you Lady Rin for allowing me to use it. Your story is a very convincing one in the fight against zero tolerance.Perhaps when I finish this paper we can do something about it. Start a movement or something. Maybe petition our politicians or whatever. Its getting ridiculous and it must be stopped. |
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Re: Zero Tolerance in schools
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| Try becoming a outstanding athlete in a important sport to your school. Notice how differently they treat and how lenient they are on your grades so you can stay on the team. |
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Re: Zero Tolerance in schools
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My school was great with its discipline. When ever I get a saturday work program, I never show up. And they reward me with a three day vacation. I believe I held the record in my school for absenses without a medical. And the reason I kept getting saturdays was because I kept ditching school.  Jomunga eats your avatars. |
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Re: Zero Tolerance in schools
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by desertranger
on 2005-12-14 06:34:29
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Stop ditching school then. I've seen star football players get zapped by ZT. Usually thy're expelled, reversed, suspened and then allowed to play. Corey is an idiot. I've talked to him on a number of occasions. Before the knife incident Ky had an emotional problem, part of ADD is up and down emotions, and went to talk to Corey (where did she come up with that name) who refused to talk to Ky. As a result I went to talk to him and I asked him what he thought his main responsibility was. His answer? He thought it was the school, security of the school and the staff. The students never even entered into it. I also asked him if he had an open door policy so the kids could talk to him. He said no because he didn't really have the time to spend with the students. When I told him that his main responsibility was to the students and that having an open door policy would help resolve a lot of problems he told me he never thought about that and that he would consider it. Obviouisly he never did because he recommended Kyle be expelled. Ask you principal what he thinks his #1 responsibility to your school is. If it's not the student then that persons need to give up his/her position. Same with the teacher. don't blanme them most want to do well, their hands are tied by lack of money and suppoert. Do not give your teachers a hard tie, they have enough problems with the school board. |
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Re: Zero Tolerance in schools
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by overlordsero
on 2005-12-14 08:17:27
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wow....my name is Kyle too.....I brought a cheap flip knife to school, accident, and I gave it to a teacher and mom had to get it back. This was in middle school, I think 6th grade. also that was bout 12/13 yrs ago. I dont know if it because I gave it to the teacher or what but I was not in trouble. But I did seem to develope a relationship with my teachers somewhat. Anyways....that just came to me when you said kyle...lol...weird....
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