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It's time for some dogma
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on 2006-01-30 09:56:56 |
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forwards: I'm fortunate today, I don't work today, so I can have some fun and I have the write this. I'm sure someone will be offended, I would be surprized if it didn't. There is no offense intended. Dogma a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively as proclaimed by various religions. That could also apply to governments as well. Backbeat wrote The FootPrints in the sand. One night a man had a dream. He dreamed he was walking along the beach with the Lord. Across the sky flashed scenes from his life. For each scene, he noticed two sets of footprints in the sand; one belonging to him, and the other to the Lord. He also wrote something from Corinthians and a few other passages as well and said that they gave him... something. It is obvious he is a faithful and devout person. Now consider; the two hottest topics guaranteed to create argument and strife are religion and politics. Politics is no good here too many cultures, besides all governments are corrupt, even the good ones. Religion, on the other hand, is guaranteed. Depending on the fervor with which you greet, defend(?) prosteleyze(?)(sp) Not the right words for this your own religion. Start Most of us were raised with some form of the Ten Commandments, there are many versions of it and we try to follow that as the basic tenant for morality in our lives. We also have the Golden Rule: Do unto others...,turn from evil and sin and of course the fundamentalist favorite , sex is bad if you not married or are just having fun. In all of this is the Dogma that has been created over thousands of years some of it maybe even predating judaism. (no caps everyone equal). Dogma can also be translated to the zeal which can be seen on TV as tele-evangelists selling religion to those who can't really afford it. What about faith? Is that the same as religion? I believe in God, I also believe in faeries, I do, I do and I believe in Gaia, the Earth Mother, the spirit and life of our homeworld; an intellegent being. That may now be acceptable to those who teach 'Intellegent Design" as a theory of creation. There is more; I have learned from Ranger about the Native Americans and what they feel and how it is to be close to the earth and that applies to many cultures even today. We (Ranger and I) live in a very hostile environment, the desert. A place that kills people just because it is a desert and because people have no respect for it. Yet, there is great spiritual power here. Great peace and a finding of oneself. Very quickly a note here to Backbeat; you are not being singled out, christains are christains whether roman catholic or CofE, muslims are muslims whether sunni or shiite and jews are jews whether orthodox or reformed, no difference, although people think there are. It's just that you started to (Oh Dear!) spout dogma. Please do not take any offense, none is offered and there may be a lot more to come. To spout dogma; the teachings of religion and again it doesn't matter, christains, jews, muslim, bhuddist(sp), shinto, pick one. Some people take whatever they learn as gospel. Since most of the worlds conflict involves the big three religions, C,J&M, they get to be tripled out equally. Since all say: if your not or don't do ____ then ____ happen. fill in the blank. Religion is fine in moderation meaining not going to extremes either left or right. The problem is a minority of the worlds religious fundamentalists are loonies and crackpots. They are also the ones creating the trouble. Somehow they take the dogma of thousands of years written by supposedly good men that says try to be good people and love each other and pervert it let's kill them because they are different. I found over dozen versions of the Ten Commandments for mostr of the owrlds religions. All basically the same, all forbidding the killing of another, whether the word murder or kill is used. It doesn't say "thou shalt not kill anyone except______." It says that "shalt not kill.", plain and simple, no excuse for misinterpreting that, Thou shalt not kill. Yet all of you kill the name of God becuase in the name of religioous faith driven by the insanity of of someone who never learned to read four simple words. Some kill doctors and nurses for going contrary to their beliefs, some kill women and children, I have no idea why, because they're arent devout? Some kill each other over apiece of land for no reason other than it's there and it is holy. In a places generally accepted as the cradle of civilization (western history) and as the holiest places on earth, there is war and murder. Not soldiers fighting war on a battlefield, just the wholesale slaughter of innocents because they happen to be at the market or in the filling station and some lunatic with a bomb sets it off in the name of holy whatever and god. It has spread; to asia, the pacific, japan even the americas, sitting on a bus or train, in a hotel or pub. People living and tourists spending money, which is how we make a living, enjoying themselves then... I have looked for reasons as to why this is happening. If I listen to the fundamentalists I get stories of armageddon and ragnarok, the end of the earth and doom. they say, "God has said it shall be because we are evil" or "God has said to punish them for their evil" and they believe this. God said after the great flood "never again". What is going on has nothing to do with faith or belief in god or yourself. It has to do with religion, the commercialization of your faith. Faith for sale. Religion can be a pure experience, even enlightening as taught in the east. Religion can also be perverted as it is in the mid-east and in the americas (yes, america it's happening in your backyard) and I think the the reason is fairly simple. All too often it starts out as being helpful then you become dependent and your religion(s) start making demands and you fall into those demands and that's when the faith you once had starts is lost or jaded to turn to the evil they all preach against. Because it is your religion, not your faith, you buy into that. For that reason it always, always winds up with "If your not with us, your again us" that's where the conflict comes from. Life and faith are really quite simple. I have taught it to my children. Love each other, keep your room clean and Zero BS. That was a lot of work.  |
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Re: It's time for some dogma
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by
on 2006-01-30 11:14:24 (edited 2006-01-30 11:15:18)
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My observations and comments: native americans (you are now talking about the people living on two entire continents over thousands of years of history) may have been "close to the earth" if you define such as being hunter-gatherer tribes. if you study the peoples of north and south america during the years before Columbus, you find 99% waring tribes. sure, there are some peaceful-minded groups scattered about. its a great idea to take their way of life as a positive example! but, to group them with two entire continents of people is, in my mind, quite neglectful of the big picture. christains are christains ... muslims are muslims ... and jews are jews This hurts my ears. I would like think that people are people, regardless of their beliefs. I would venture to claim REGION is a FAR stronger prediction of a person's character than RELIGION. "God told me to do it" is the most often used excuse for misbehavior. Clearly, killing people in the name of your god is misbehavior! Less devistating, but still a problem, God is used as an excuse to be unrealistic about sex, money, friends, family, work, etc. "for He shal provide" is one of my favorites. lets be honest, if people kill other people, they are killers first, religious second. Zero BS is the most important thing! 
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Re: It's time for some dogma
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by S-a-c-h-i-e-l
on 2006-01-30 13:28:41
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I can't read your whole post right now, Rin, I only read about halfway through, skipped to the end and I am now quickly making this post here. So, here doth be my thoughts. Saying "God told me to do this usually wrong thing" is totally stupid. It'd be like Gendou saying "Download 4000 songs three times, make a quintuple post, yell at me for being smart, and say my site stinks. It'll be good!" It just simply makes no sense. Personally, I say who cares about your religion, you know what's right go do it.  |
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Re: It's time for some dogma
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by
on 2006-01-30 14:14:19 |
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I believe people are people too, but the need to be individualized is carried over to all peoples. Hence the impossible amounts of diviations from the same basic method. "Just be good" should be enough, but it isn't. God should not be an immortal excuse to every little thing, but people need some sort of justification, regardless of what they do. This shows that they do have souls, to have to say that God commanded them to kill and commit suicide means that they simply could not cope regardless. Religion can so easily be alternately intepreted. Since there are no universally excepted standards of initial comparison(between what is true), this problem cannot be rectified. A man I knew once said: "As long as people need religion it will be there." I believe in God very much so, but this poses another question: Did God create us or did we "create" God? Oh well, something to think about I guess... |
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Re: It's time for some dogma
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by desertranger
on 2006-01-30 16:55:51
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I gotta say when Rin drops a bomb it's a big one. Gendou if you look at all of them; Indians, euroeans, asians the whole list all of them war. So what. I think what Rin was refering to was the spirit of cultures being closer to the earth, The Aztecs, mayans, incas all had sopme pretty barbaric practices including sacrifice. Romans nailed 'em up by the forest load and the crusades slaughtered everybody in the name of religion. gotta tell ya though, Rin places a great difference between religion, what we are taught in school by our parents and religious leaders as compared to the writings of Mohammed, Luke or even Confucious. It is the writings we study, that is where we learn to have faith. that is what we learn from people considered far wiser than the local Imam, rabbi or priest who teaches in a mosque, temple or church. After all our non-secular teachers go to school to become preachers of whatever faith. The study, receive a degree and they believe the same way I have a degree in engineering and I believe in the affects of physics on te normal world. What I don't understand is how Mohammed or any one elses words of live in peace with your neighbors become kill them because they are not jew/christain/muslim/whatever. Rin truly does not underetand things like war, violence, intolerence and a lot more even though she has experienced it first hand. I do ad O have tired t teach her. She still reacts very negatively to things like that. She would like to know why Reverand Rolex (a neighbor) who preaches love and forgiveness on one side holds a grudge for years towards others at the same time. I dont think Osama bin Ladin has a lot of faith. He sure has a lot of religion though. Intolerance, hate, a willingness to kill people who have done him no harm at all other than they are not his religion whatever that is. George Bush is no different. He has no faith either but bags of religion. He has publicly stated that he wants a "return to the christain values that is america". A return to the christain values that are america? America is not a christain country, it never has been but he wants it that way. George Bush, Osama bin laden in a gray suit instead of a kaftan. Osama Biun Laden, George Bush with an AK-47. Both with an intolerene and hate towards each other bred by religion. Gendou said, "Zero BS is the most important thing!" Rin appreciates that but wants to know; what about your room?  |
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Re: It's time for some dogma
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by
on 2006-01-30 17:13:11 |
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To be honest, i do not know what you mean by "closer to the earth". I picture a woman searching for roots in the dence jungle. I fail to see what being close to the earth has to do with moral decision making, which i saw to be the main topic of the rant. We make our own decisions, but should not hoist our oppinions onto others, am i right? wether you sleep in a tree-house or japanese condo, all moral questions apply, do they not? Perhaps i am missing some point, or am totally lost... I want to stop you when you compare "faith" in engineering and physics to religious faith. Science is not comparable with religion. Science is not a religion, nor is religion any sort of science. This has been illustrated clearly by the recent intelligent design hearing. Science is the pursuit of the truth. Religion is the pursuit for God. Personally, I used to think that the two were separate branches of the same tree. I have found over my 22 years of life that this is untrue. I dont think Osama bin Ladin has a lot of faith. He sure has a lot of religion though. I gave this sentence a lot of thought, and find it very insightful! I am by no means an expert on president Bush but from what I have come to understand, he is genuinely faithful. To me, this helps to explain how easily he is made to be a puppet. Just feed him names of people who are "good" and "evil"! With these preconceptions in place, his policy, and thus the whole country, is easily manipulated. My room? oh, i am a subtle neat freak. I will pile up the occasional mess, but it is myself and not my girlfriend who often asks "can we keep the room clean, please".
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Re: It's time for some dogma
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Most religions say the same thing: Live and let live, respect and be respected, win your place in heaven with God, etcetera. We would live in a much better place if people followed the first two "rules" or guidlines. But since nobody does, the world is plunged in chaos and destruction. To me, religion is the one thing that is saving this world. Somebody can argue that it is the thing causing our problems. I can only say that it is the people who care only about themselves that ruin it. As long as animals like Bin Laden, Bush, Salinas de Gortari, and the other idiots exist in the world, we are screwed until Judgement Day. I have come to believe that if we manage to tolerate everybody else, we wouldn't have so many problems. 
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Re: It's time for some dogma
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by
on 2006-01-30 19:23:42 |
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It is said the best place to start is at the beginning so here I go. As far as Religion is concered it was "created" to explain the unexplainable, little more after that. Many of our "anchient" faiths that populate this world are polytheistic, and it was true that the first montheistic religion was Judaism. In contiuation there were the many faratures and splits of nearly every religion since then. Look at the most prevalent religions today, Islam, Christianity, Judsism, ect. All of these relgions expirianced fracturing sects and divions, none quite so adept at this than Christianity(great schism, protestant reform). This leads to question of why. Why would these religions seperate? That question is easily remidied, people will belive what, and how they want. If you were to boil down every religion on the face of this world you would find that they are 80% or more. Islam, Christianity, Judaism are all derived from one another. The three most followed religions are all based in the same idealogy, why is that? It is because when you are a nation it is easier to convert followers and effectivly take over lands if your culture resembles the other. It is inherant in human behavior to group with others like you. Meaning that if belive in a certain way of thinking then you will find others who thinkk as you do and follow them. There is no better example than the Roman Empire. Thier conversion to Christianity was purly political. The masses had already converted; so the government, in order to stve off rebeliion, changed its official religion. This but one of the many states that converted to stay popular in the eyes of the people. A few centuraries later you had the HRE(Holy Roman Empire, essentially the catholic church) and thier attempts to preserve thier followers, why? Because they wanted the money. Think about it, if you say that people need to give 10% of what they earn you'll get more money the more people you attact. This is also why many of the strogest advocates of Catholocism, eary on, were the rich nobels of Europe. The chuch had attarcted theses people with things such as annulments, or ways to reduce time in purgatory. The Catholic church in those times was basically a monotary faith, or money based. In some ways still is. I am not sigiling out Christianity or any other religion I know the horrible pasts that many religions would like you to forget. The fact that Judiasm was actually used more as a way for people to vindicate thier zealous behavior against rome is testament to that. The Islamic faith being a backbord for the persectuion of thousands of Jews for pretty much all time, not to mention the internal conflicts. The question of faith brings up valid points. As I have above stated, religion has been used for things other than "religios" behavior. To have religion does not nessarily mean that you have faith. A 30 year old man who lives in South Carolina, devotes himself to the pursuit of his religion and actually does what his particular religion says to do, does not mean that he has faith. The truth is can anyone say that they have faith. the definition of faith is as follows: complete confidence in a person or plan. Can you, or for that matter anyone, say that they can truly belive in anything. If ever facade it is the veil of faith. It blinds us, hides things, and destroys logic. If not for faith religions could not pull the proverbial wool of we-know-what's-best over our eyes. Faith is also a double eged sword, on one side you have beifs and hopes, on the other you have hatered and despair. If not for faith none of us would be here, we all have faith that we will wake up tomarrow, we all have faith that the what we see and hear is the truth. Wouldn't be a suprise if it wasn't though. What if all you have ever heard, seen, learned, or what-have-you, was a farce, a lie built upon your faith. It is questions like this that are the cause of much doubt in the world, If anything the faith in this world, or the next for that matter, is inconsequecial. What point does faith serve today, can you find one instance of how faith (non-religios zeal, yes there is a difference) has affected anything today, or ever for that matter. Rules and/or commandments of any religion sans scientology are based of controll of the people for better management by goverments. Think for a few seccond even if you don't belive me. What is easier to controll, a group of "sinners"(in the biblical sense), or a group of devout followers of a nations "soverge" religion. Christianty happens to be one of the forerunners of this, if you doubt me name the 4 richest countries in the world and how many of those countries has christianity as a major religion. The fact odf the matter is religion is used to assist governments, having a national religion is bad for business, however. Hence why also most of the leading nations have secular societies, let the people choose how we controll them. Wars and/or coflicts are spawned by cultural differences. It would be nearly impossible to have any haterd twards on e antother if there was no seperations in culture. The facts are simple, it is MUCH easier to "hate" someone of a different ethnicity than yourself. If all cultures were the same there could be no wars. You would have to hate yourself to establish a foundation to attack others. Good luck convincing others, and the fact that the act of doing this would creat a sub-culture thus shattering the one culture ideal, rending the above statement pointless. I have studdied Native Americans exstensivly over the years, and with the help of one my closer friends have found that no one has yet to creat a non-sterotypical view of them. Even they themselves viewed each other as savages in some cases. Ther truth is every one has a generalization built up, re-inforced, and finalized in thier minds about everything. Being "down to earth" actually has no bearing on how one behaves. My bother is "down to earth" he trains horses in New York, sleeps outside, has no income, goes were and how he wants, ect. His moral choices are unaffected by that. He still asks my dad for money, steals, lies, cheats, piggybacks off others, ect. His chioces and expiriances, and his alone have shaped him into what he is today. Not the religion he follows, not weather he lives off the ground and eats dandilions in spring, and not his faith, he alone has chosen that path, and if he's better for it, good for him. Don't get me wrong by what I have said above. I am as devout a Christian as you will find North of the Mason Dixon. I help others, follow laws and regulations set forth by my particular relgion, ect. What I do in my life, however, is not dictated by a set a rules the Catholic priests wrote to gain control over me. In my years of exspiriance, I have come close to death, expirianced a religious event, had a miriacle preformed on my life, but I still firmly belive that what I see in the any religion is a simple fabriction. I belive in a higher power, in things that are good, but I do not belive that if I pay the church I will go to "heaven." I belive that the actions in my life will dictate what will hapen later on, NOT HOW MUCH I GAVE IN A SILVER PLATE ON SUNDAYS. Modern Religion is a sham, the "smart" people realized about 2000 years ago that religion=money and so religion has changed from its original purpose, to explain the explainable. Since that time is has changed to bless based on how much you pay, and not by what you do. Well, thats it to conclude what you want. I can't change that. |
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Re: It's time for some dogma
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*burts in the discussion* Interesting fact folks,Dogma is a movie that frequently airs on Comedy Central starring some chick and Jay and Silent Bob. *blank stares from peers* Right,uh...I think that Religion is what you believe will happen after you're gone and faith is believing in something,which includes religion...so they are same but different. *more blank stares* *sits in corner,silently* |
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Re: It's time for some dogma
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I read everything. I would like to thank everyone for there insight, I enjoyed it. One thing I don't like is how people follow religion blindly. People will keep from doing bad deeds just because their religion says so. They will keep from doing bad deeds because they are afraid of hell. That is BS. You shouldn't do bad deeds because YOU don't want too. You shouldn't kill people because your religion says its bad, you yourself should feel its bad. Who is more just, a person who has killed many and regreted it deeply to a point off depression, or the person who never killed anybody however holds the disire too? Worrying about what your religion says sometimes clouds what is good too what is bad. These people shouting they kill in the name of their religion are most certainly ingorant, follow your heart not your religion. You should let a religion rule your life. One should do good deeds because they enjoy helping others, not so they can get into heaven for the sake of themselves. If heaven really exists one can be sure they won't get into it if they don't have the right mindset. If one thinks they are good because they have never sinned, then they should do some introspection. Do what is right, not what religion says is right.  Jomunga eats your avatars. |
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Re: It's time for some dogma
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by
on 2006-01-31 06:12:35 |
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I find the responser tpo this thread interesting. I fully expected it do die. Ninja what you say for the most part is true. Religion is a way to control the masses. Of you go back in histor, and not all that far, you will find that in families the first sone went into the military, the second son to the church and the third becoming a merchant. When you look at something like the Church of England what you find is asplit from the catholic church over political and personal reasons. TGhe CofE was created by Henry the VIII so he could divorce one of his wives to marry another. The final outcome of this was to increase the wealth of those who ran the CofE. The CofE today is more like going to a party or some other effair, thehy certainly don't go into the formalities of the Roman Catholics. I have never heard from a CofE minister "To love god you have to fear god", which is a favorite phrase of the catholics. The problem is the selling of your faith, religion. I am amazed at the lengths some religions go in order to try to sell you what ever it is they are offering, usually salvation. We live 3 miles off the main highway almost at the end of a fairly maintaind dirt road. When you reach the main gate it's still a few hundred feet to the house. My nearest neighbor is 1/3 mile frm here. Several times a year Jehovah Witnesses show up to try to sell us on "Have you been saved"?. They show up as pretty little familes in sweet clothes, and shining faces. Ranger's sister says where she lives they are easy to get rid of. Here not so easy, I suppose it's because they have to come such a long way to sell us. They are made of stern stuff and it is difficult to get them understand we don't want them there. They totally ignore every thing you say. There is even a sign as you enter the main gate that basically says if you are preaching or selling something do not to enter. They don't care all they want to do is sell you something, religion. Enough for now. I don't want to get started on Rev. Stewart who is the perfect example of a pastor who just wants to sell religion insted of create faith. Maybe later. |
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Re: It's time for some dogma
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by Seculi Terminus
on 2006-01-31 09:45:44
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Oh, God, I've been waiting for this thread. I've gotta lotta pent-up pressure I need to let loose~ hehehe~~~ 1. Faith and Herd Mentality First of all, I want to start with the statement that faith is nothing but accepting something (in this case a religious principle) without having any proof that it is true. I think that what many people are thinking of when they say "faith" would be better put as "spirituality" or a "spiritual" sense of life. Now, the thing with fundamentalists is that they simply aren't crazy. Bin Laden, as much as people would like to think he is, is simply not some loony, crazy guy who has completely lost his mind. The biggest reason why most people believe what they believe is because everyone else around them believes the same thing - in other words, herd mentality. They assume that if everyone else believes something, it must be true. ("20,000,000 Americans can't be wrong!") Of course, this is absolutely absurd. Objective truth isn't a matter of opinion and you should never try to find it by putting a vote to it. Most people don't even care what the real, objective truth is; all they want is a nice house, a hot wife and a snazzy job. Will to truth runs weak in common man. For instance, in most of the United States, believing in God is pretty common, despite a complete and total lack of hard evidence that he (or she, or it or whatever) exists. Nonetheless, belief persists. In most of the Middle East, however, things are different. Secularism is at an all-time low and the power of Islam is as great as ever. Many things that we would believe are preposterous are accepted without question, simply because everyone else believes the same things. 2. Fundamentalism and Religious Moderation To be quick and blunt about it, the difference between a fundamentalist and a moderate is that a fundamentalist acutally believes what he's saying. Frankly, I think Rin must either (1) have not have read the Bible, (2) have a very selective memory, or (3) not accept many of the things in the Bible as part of her scripture. Anyone who claims that the Bible is some sort of love letter to his beloved children has never read the book before. A few passages I'd like to point out: Leviticus 24:16a And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him;... Deuteronomy 22:23-24 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbor's wife: so thou shalt put evil from among you. St. Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. St. Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Christian scripture is replete with pronouncements of hell, death and torment to homosexuals, people who have sex before getting married, and just generally anyone who disagrees with anything that the Bible says (denounced as "blasphemy" or "heresy," usually.) If you accept the Bible as divinely inspired, as virtually every Christian sect claims to, you have to accept a slew of passages that directly contradict any philosophy of "turn the other cheek." And if you're Muslim, you have even more passages like this to choose from. Maybe it's crazy to believe stuff like that. But then again, when around a half to three quarters of Americans (depending on how you slice the statistics) claim to believe that the Bible is the written Word of God, how crazy is it? I live in Salt Lake City, Utah - one of the most conservative states in the Union as well as one of the most Christian (unless you're one of those that doesn't classify Mormons as Christian.) Three quarters of the population believe that if the President of the LDS Church said something, then it's probably because God told it to him. My own parents, by the way, are polygamists - I want to make it clear, since there seems to be a lot of confusion, the mainstream church does NOT approve of this practice, and anti-polygamy laws were written into the state constitution at its conception. Both are college educated. Both are converts from mainstream Christian sects. The only difference between them and most people is that they actually accept the notion that if a book is the word of God, maybe we ought to follow its precepts - and this logic has led my mother to not only allow but require my father to take two other wives. So let me ask you: if two college-educated Americans from stable families can fool themselves into believing such crap, how much easier do you think it is for people in the Middle East, who are living under virtual theocracies? 3. Religious Hatred Now, let's say you're one of the few that not only has come to a belief in Christianity, you actually read the books, too. As I noted above, there are plenty of references that forbid you to even seriously question the ideas propounded in the Bible on penalty of everlasting hellfire. Under this view, all the people that tell you to believe something else suddenly take on a very subversive color, especially since you now know that they're probably under influence of devils (or at least the disease of their own rationality.) It's very easily to become very angry that someone would do everything they can to send you to hell - and when you consider the possibility of these people gaining control over your children's minds, it gets even worse. (What do you think the teaching of Intelligent Design is about? The people are only doing their best to save their children from an eternity rotting in everlasting torment.) If even the small taint of lust in your mind is enough to count as adultery, as Jesus says, doesn't it only make sense that people would get upset over a supermodel on TV showing a bit too much cleavage? Of course they're angry. What's at stake is nothing less than your everlasting soul. 4. What This All Means Now, this is, of course, only a description of the fundamentalist point of view. Most Americans are too materialistic to even concern themselves over this sort of thing - but these unthoughtful people usually relegate their moral views to the people around them, deciding to act on herd mentality. So, if the people around you believe that sex is a sin, you take it as a matter of fact as well. And - ta-da! - this is where we get so many of our crazy ideas about life. Has anyone thought about why sex is dirty? "Well, it seems all right, but if everyone else thinks it's bad, it probably is." What's wrong with swearing? "I don't know, but everyone else says it's wrong, so I don't do it." The fact is, most of the basic tenets of modern American culture are nothing but byproducts of Christian fundamentalism. The reason why we don't have mixed public bathing or nude beaches or allow children to watch videos that have naked people in them (even though we might not be Christian!), the reason we don't allow ourselves to "judge" someone else's character, the reason so many of us refuse to grant homosexuals their civil rights - is because most of us just follow the rest of the herd like cattle. Note I One of the ironic things I'd like to note, though, is that fundamentalist Christianity is actually more like (very) old Judaism than anything that Christ actually preached. Atheistic liberals are actually probably more in line with Jesus' philosophy than faith-based conservatives are. Kinda funny. Note II I know what Rin is talking about - starting around the mid-ninteenth century during the Great Revival, preachers started commercializing religion in order to sell it easier. It's a lot more of an ego boost to know that God always loves you and will send you straight to heaven regardless of how you act than it is to believe that you're going to hell unless you straighten up. Therefore (with a starting push from Martin Luther) the "don't judge" is carried to such an extreme that you shouldn't even be critical of yourself. Note III I have to agree with Jomunga - if you're only doing what you're supposed to do because you want to get into heaven, it comes off as incredibly immature and self-centered to me. It really pisses me off when I tell people that I'm atheist and they ask me "So why would you do anything right?" That's my $0.02. Plus change. AKA Home-Dog Ass-Masta' The G-Unit |
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Re: It's time for some dogma
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by S-a-c-h-i-e-l
on 2006-01-31 10:05:23 (edited 2006-01-31 10:08:21)
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I agree with a large portion of what you said, Seculi Terminus. However, you said this about your parents: "if two college-educated Americans from stable families can fool themselves into believing such crap..." If they're like that, and believe in something that is not what the most of the herd is doing, then wouldn't it be wise to consider what they're doing? And what if, for the sake of argument, the whole herd is right for some reason? I've been stuck on questions like these for a while... "It really pisses me off when I tell people that I'm atheist and they ask me 'So why would you do anything right?' " I totally 100% agree with that one. Not much else to say on that. You have a lot of single-cow ideas that are different from the rest of the herd's... Very interesting ^_^ |
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Re: It's time for some dogma
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by Seculi Terminus
on 2006-01-31 10:29:44
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Of course, consider it. I'm not saying that if someone accepts something as true, it must be wrong :P Just don't assume that they're right. If they're right, there shouldn't be any reason that you can't tell. You can read the same books, your brain works the same way, you can talk to the same people. If what someone else says doesn't seem to add up to you, maybe that's because it doesn't ^.~ The way I reason it is that "Yes, TECHNICALLY there could be a God." However, it's also possible that we all live in the Matrix. It's also possible that everything we see is some sort of deception or illusion. Descartes claimed that "I think, therefore I am." But if all his other senses are wrong, it's just as possible that his sense of self itself is wrong. The problem is that it's useless to speculate. If all our senses are incorrect, for instance, there would be no perceivable way to tell, because the only way we can relate to reality is through those senses. Therefore, we can only assume that what we perceive is basically correct - and there doesn't seem to be much factual support for God's existence. Even if there IS a God, it wouldn't make any difference in our lives, practically speaking: with or without God, it takes the movement of atoms to produce heat. With or without God, in our reality, yelling at someone makes them sad. With or without God, we bleed just the same. To borrow the words of Miguel de Unamuno: "God is superfluous." And, even if there were a God, how would you know which religion to have faith in? Virtually all of the major religions today offer no evidence of their correctness (while usually being able to be proven incorrect, one way or another) and instead rely on blind faith for their support. Moreover, I'm going to borrow a little allegory from a more recent philosopher, Sam Harris. Let's say you meet someone who comes up to you and tells you, "I have a diamond the size of a refrigerator in my backyard." What would you do? You'd assume he was joking, because otherwise, he'd have to be crazy. The largest diamond in the world isn't even the size of a golf ball, to say nothing of a fridge. It doesn't matter what he tells you, if he can't show you a diamond that size, you're not going to believe him. It doesn't matter if having a supersized jewel helps make the world make more sense, it doesn't matter if it gives him a sense of security, it doesn't matter if he wouldn't want to live in a world where there wasn't a diamond the size of a refrigerator in his backyard, you'd still think he's crazy. God is the diamond. Moreover, most people are convinced that this diamond has talked to them and tells them to do things, especially to stop having sex and not allow homosexuals to marry. That's my $0.02. Plus change. AKA Home-Dog Ass-Masta' The G-Unit |
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Re: It's time for some dogma
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by
on 2006-01-31 11:25:47 |
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I find myself strangely out of things to say! very good argument style Seculi. Many insightful points as always ninja. Thanks to rin/ranger i think i really understand the difference between faith and religion. This is all something new for me to ponder, i love it.
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Re: It's time for some dogma
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by
on 2006-01-31 17:49:47 |
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It's OK Gendou it happens to the best of us, especially when we get older. Running out of things to say that is. Seculi, you seem to support the idea of group thought, or the theory that a group behaves as on based on the actions of one central figure. What it basically says is that in every group there is one or two central figures who subconciously controll the entire group. If you don't belive look at any gathering of people, in side of that group you will see the natural leaders take control even in a group of strangers. You will usually find that those who settle in control do so comfotably. That is why you can tell when somone is acting weather they have control or not, certain charismatci portions are missing, or aren't fully developed. I'm one of the former, I can walk into a gruop of people and command them realitivly easily, why, because I know how. It is a simple matter of showing that you know what you are doing, usualy that entails doing menial labor until people recognize your superior skills in a set area. It is that way that I can controll a large group of people. I've done it on many occasions. Most of which at scouts especially at work weekends. Try it, it's fun, very fun. I'm not saying to force your ideas but be a leader and not a peon. |
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Re: It's time for some dogma
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by
on 2006-01-31 19:05:49 |
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Seculi, on this point: Note I One of the ironic things I'd like to note, though, is that fundamentalist Christianity is actually more like (very) old Judaism than anything that Christ actually preached. Atheistic liberals are actually probably more in line with Jesus' philosophy than faith-based conservatives are. Kinda funny. I would like to hear what you have to support this statement. While I can sort of see what you are trying to get at, I also don't want to jump to conclusions as to your meaning. Mako writes: As long as animals like Bin Laden, Bush, Salinas de Gortari, and the other idiots exist in the world, we are screwed until Judgement Day. I ask: Sure you call people like Bin Laden and Salinas idiots, and I also understand many people think the same of Bush, but to call them all animals? I think Bush is far from the best of American presidents, but surely you would rather have him in the position he is as opposed to the other two you mention. I know Bush is as highly criticized as Clinton or Nixon was thanks to the highly controversial military action he has taken. I would remind all you that criticize him, without trying to discourage you from your opinion, that you obviously think you could do a better job in his position. Any action you might take in his position would be equally criticized by the half of the public that disagrees with your view. Criticizim is part of being in a public position, whether the head of a country or merely a celebrity, one is subjected to popular criticizm. (I just realized I lost the point I was trying to make and am now senselessly rambling, so I will just shut up on this subject for now unless I suddenly remember my original thought.) Out of all of this I have to point out something that has been overlooked or, at least, ignored up to this point. Several have mentioned how you believe all government is corrupt, and while I agree, I ask: Why is it corrupt? Because people are corrupt. ALL people are corrupt. I don't give a rat's ass if that offends you, but it's the truth and the truth hurts. Every person has some degree of what Christian doctorine teaches as "sin nature". I know that I haven't been perfect in my life. I know no one has been perfect (overlooking Christian belief of Jesus' perfection, other religion's beliefs about holy persons, etc.). Each of you know this about yourself even if you don't want to admit it; there has been at least ONE time where you have done something morally wrong (though I wouldn't believe you if you said it was only once). I'm not going to try to define what is right or wrong either. You know you shouldn't have done what you did at a certain point of time. If you still think you've been the spotless image of perfection, you just don't have any moral character at all and probably wouldn't post in this rather religion/faith centerd thread anyway. (Once again I have mentally lost the concluding statements I had wanted to make a few minutes ago. Maybe your replies will bring it back to me.) |
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Re: It's time for some dogma
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Seculi made an interesting point when he said: "if two college-educated Americans from stable families can fool themselves into believing such crap, how much easier do you think it is for people in the Middle East, who are living under virtual theocracies?" My response: People beleive in whatever they want to believe in. Factors like education, wealth, social status, geographical location, etc. have nothing to do with it. The richest person and the poorest person can believe in the exact same thing. If you don't want to, fine. But if you don't believe in anything then I really don't know what you have in your mind. I know that religion has become some way to control people, I also know that the majority of relgious people are to blind to actully see what's going on. But if manipulating everybody is the only way to try to make the world a better place, then I will so follow the herd and I will do good deeds just to be able to go to heaven (even if I don't really deserve it). EDIT: We criticize because we can (obviously). I criticize Bush because I am against his pathetic attempt to "help other nations". I called him an animal because he was able to kill A LOT of innocent people in his stupid attempt to capture Hussein (and the oil) without having any regrets. I called him an idiot becuase he could've started WW III (and boy, was he close to it) BTW: Salinas was an (censured). Worst president Mexico has ever had.
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Re: It's time for some dogma
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by
on 2006-01-31 19:22:27 |
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(This is very strange I really didn't expect to have this kind of an effect. Seriously Gendou-sama and I have a word for you in our thread You came to an understanding, an epiphany, over what we said about the difference between religion and faith? (Oh Dear!) I didn't think that... realize... *stomps foot* I don't know what to say and that's frustrating. Seculi Terminus if you were waiting for this thread why ddn't you start it yourself? I never did do very well in bible studies however I have learned a great deal about religion and faith. In school I learned about as much as the average person does only I never found comfort or revalation of any kind in any religious writings until I met Ranger and was introduced to the Torah and to Eastern and other philosphies. That allowed me to view the world, including religion and faith, through different eyes. I have learned much in the 20+ years we have known each other that there can be peace and enlightenment even if attaining it is only for a few moments every now and then. My basic philosophy is a mix of Judaism, Zen and Tao all of which teach understanding and an acceptance, although sometimes I don't do very well at it. Some people call that wisdom although I'm sure Ranger knows more about that than I do. I speak of love, peace, tolerance and understanding constantly. That is because what I taught from the bible -the King James version, from my father and school was all hate. I grew up with hate, violence and abuse. There was no tolerance for anything different. I was taught that from the day of my birth that I was a sinner, born into sin and that Jesus died for our sins. I don't believe that. I am not a sinner. My uncle (second son to the church) was always telling me, "Janet sweet child, if you don't accept Jesus into your heart then you shall never have salvation" as he tried to fondle me. This si what you tell a 10 year old? Why does a 10 year old need salvation, especially when your minister, your uncle is trying to touch you improperly? We even had several catholic priests from the local archdiocese implicated in the scandals involving molesting children. Religion in the guise of ministering the faithful while raping their children. Earlier I said, "closer to the earth" and it was mis-interpreted to mean a peacful people. I did not mean to imply that. What I meant was; in those cultures a greater importance was placed on living in harmony with nature. To learn from nature and benefit from it. That was the purpose of the shamans and medicine men. They were the healers - physical and spiritual, engineers, scientists, researchers who learned how to use the plants that were available and how to use the gut of a rabbit as a bow string as opposed to fibers from the agave plant. That is some of what I have learned and what Ranger grew up with. In a in a hunter/gather (pre-agraian) culture that a plant harveTster would never take from a plant without giving thanks to that plant first. that would be the same as saying grace before eating a meal. Neither would they take all of the fruit that there was leaving some for the animals and more important for something to grow for next year. Everyone needs to have faith in something whether you believe in God or faeries in your garden. The ancient writings, what we call our non-secular texts, are there to give you faith to help you believe and to guide you in your lives perhaps even to give you wisdom. They are not the be all end all and they certainly not taken as gospel. I believe; I do, I do. |
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Re: It's time for some dogma
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I have yet to hear an argument I disagreed with. First off even though people follow their religion like nuts, it is only natural. In this world 98% are sheep, 1% are the shephards, and 1% are wolfs. 98% of people will believe what you tell them. They ask how they were made, you tell them god made you. 2% will ask how, why, when. If you want a good herd of sheep you need a good shephard, which is why I agree with Mako. Sheep shouldn't lead sheep. Bush is a sheep, an animal. Just there are a short supply of shephards, wolfs are doing their own thing, all is left is to find the biggest sheep to lead the herd. I am starting to get sleepy. Psoplayer, I am corrupt, I know it. However compared to others how corrupt am I, not very. However, ALL people are not corrupt. I will say this, it is usually the sheep who are the least corrupt. However they corrupt easily. Which is why I really have to urge wolfs to stop picking at the herd, and shephards to stop leading them to the slaughter. The sheep aren't born corrupt, but infect one sheep and the sheep next to it will corrupt, the cycle will continue. Why? Because they are sheep. To everyone who doesn't like being compared to sheep, I am complimenting you actually. I could use cattle instead. Sheep are cute, I love sheep.  I know what you have to deal with Seculi, my entire Moms side of the family are fundimentalist christains. When we go to visit them I am not allowed to use the following words: monkey, ape, gorilla, evolution. A spin off on DirtyNinja's joke 1 sheep 2 sheep 3 sheep floor...zzzzzzzz Jomunga eats your avatars. |